This week while I was reading the Wheel of Time, I learned that I didn’t understand the Schrödinger’s cat theorem as well as I thought it did. Granted, I am not really a math and science person, and I’m still not sure I understand what quantum superposition is except in the very broadest sense, but what I do now understand is that Schrödinger’s thought experiment ultimately suggests the many worlds interpretation of physics over the idea of waveform collapse; Basically, Schrödinger was trying to say that every possible outcome of an event creates a new universe, and that there are an infinite number of universes created by every possible outcome.
How does this relate to The Great Hunt? you might ask. (Well, you’re probably not asking that because you’ve already read this weeks’ chapters, but please permit me the rhetorical device.) This week, Rand, Loial, and Hurin have accidentally traveled to a universe outside their own—an “if” world—and they have no idea how to get back.
Chapter 13 opens with Rand awaking somewhere that seems like the same hollow he fell asleep in, and yet is different. Instead of on one side of the hollow, he, Loial, and Hurin are sleeping in the middle of it, at the base of a huge stone covered in strange markings. The quality of their surroundings is also different, paler and distant-seeming; even the sun is strangely pale in the sky, despite a complete lack of cloud cover, and the hollow is paved with stones and rings like steps up to a lip ringed by fire-ravaged trees. Perhaps worst of all, everyone, except for the three of them and their horses, has disappeared.
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The Great Hunt
Rand, hoping that he’s dreaming, shakes Loial and Hurin awake. Hurin is immediately panicky, but the Ogier looks over the stone and declares that he believes it is the same one that they went to sleep by last night, though at the time it was toppled and half buried, weathered by the elements. He explains to Rand that he once read a book that had a picture of this Stone, and some bits of information. He believes that the Aes Sedai, in the Age of Legends, used such Stones to travel to to other worlds along what they called “the lines of ‘if’.”
Loial is uncertain of his hypothesis that they have entered another world, though; even if the Aes Sedai did use the Stones in such a way, as far as he knows they have no one among them who can channel. But Rand’s conscience pricks at him—he remembers the void forming just as he was falling asleep, and although he tries to push the thought aside, he decides that the fact that they are here must be his fault. Hurin turns to him in alarm, calling him my Lord and begging him to make sure they get home, because his wife couldn’t handle not ever knowing what happened to him, or at least having his body to “return to the mother.” Rand wants to refute the title, but he realizes that Hurin is taking comfort from trusting Rand, as a Lord and the designated leader, and since Rand believes that it’s his fault they are in such a mess, he can’t bring himself to take away that security. He promises Hurin that he will figure out a way to get them home, and Hurin is immediately comforted, although Rand insists that there will be no bowing.
He goes to the Stone and lays his hand on it, struggling past his fear to form the Void. There he sees the light he now recognizes as saidin, and he manages to stretch out to touch it. But he cannot hold it, and as he tries he finds the taint clinging to him instead. He forms a mental image of the hollow as it was before, with all of Ingtar’s men and Perrin and Mat, and tries to bring it into the light somehow. It makes his head hurt, and as he continues to struggle, the void shatters and drives into his mind like sharp points of broken glass.
Thrown out of his concentration, Rand opens his eyes and struggles to remain outwardly calm as he recovers, the pain real enough that he’s surprised not to find blood at his temples. He notices how calm Hurin is, how he trusts that Lord Rand is doing something because that is what lords do, protect the people. Loial is watching Rand curiously, and Rand wonders what the Ogier is thinking as he tells them that it was worth a try. He’s trying to keep the worst-case-scenario thoughts out of his head when Hurin cautiously suggests that they could find the Darkfriends and make them show Rand and co how to get back. Rand is confused at first, but Hurin explains that he can still smell the trail, although it is oddly faint, like everything else in that world.
Rand, knowing that they must find the Horn and especially the dagger for Mat, and knowing also how much he fears to try to channel again, decides that they will go after the Darkfriends, to recapture the Horn if they can, and to have their location to provide to Ingtar if they can’t. He sends Hurin ahead to double-check the trail as he and Loial pack up, and the Ogier questions Rand as to his intent with the Stones.
“Rand, that fragment said the Stones came from an older Age than the Age of Legends, and even the Aes Sedai then did not understand them, though they used them, some of the truly powerful did. They used them with the One Power, Rand. How did you think to use this Stone to take us back? Or any other Stone we find?”
Thinking quickly, Rand suggests that if the Stones were so old, perhaps they did not actually need the Power at all to be used; after all, the Darkfriends also traveled using them, somehow, and they certainly weren’t channeling. Loial seems doubtful, but accepts Rand’s reasoning, and they ride out, trying to ignore the strange way the land seems to shift and throw off their senses of distance and perspective as they ride south, following Hurin, following the trail.
Meanwhile, back in the original world, Ingtar is demanding how three men, one of them his loyal sniffer, could have disappeared from camp without a trace. Mat suggests that they might have run away, and when Ingtar reacts incredulously, Mat starts to mention something about Rand. Perrin is concerned that Mat is going to give the secret away, and wishes he could throw something at him to stop him, but fortunately Mat comes to his senses and just says that it’s possible. Ingtar answers that Loial is free to go as he wished, but that he knows that neither Hurin nor Rand, who knows his duty now, would run away. But the fact remains that they cannot figure out where the three disappeared to, and Ingtar stomps off, angrily muttering to himself about the impossibility of it all and wondering how he can track the Darkfriends without Hurin.
Perrin is worried about Rand, but he realizes that such thoughts are doing nothing to follow the Darkfriends, to find the Horn and the dagger that Mat needs to live. And he also realizes that there is a way he can help follow that trail, as much as he has been shying away from the idea. He doesn’t believe Rand would have run away while Mat was still in danger, and he himself cannot run away from the truth for the same reason.
Thinking about how it serves him right to be unable to run from his truth after telling Rand that sometimes you can’t run, Perrin closes his eyes and lets his thoughts reach out to the wolves. To his brothers, which he acknowledges as such, even though he does not want it. They respond, surprised and pleased to find a “two-legs that talks,” saying that they have heard of such things returning. They ask if he is Long Tooth, sending him images that Perrin recognizes as Elyas. He offers a picture of himself instead, and is surprised when the wolves say that they have heard of him.
It was not the image he had made, a young man with heavy shoulders and shaggy, brown curls, a young man with an axe at his belt, who others thought moved and thought slowly. That man was there, somewhere in the mind picture that came from the wolves, but stronger by far was a massive, wild bull with curved horns of shining metal, running through the night with the speed and exuberance of youth, curly-haired coat gleaming in the moonlight, flinging himself in among Whitecloaks on their horses, with the air crisp and cold and dark, and blood so red on the horns, and. . . .
Young Bull.
Perrin is so shocked that they have given him a name that he loses contact for a moment. He doesn’t want to remember the night he killed two Whitecloaks, has been doing his best to move past the guilt and pain he feels over that action, but he reaches back out to the wolves anyway. He gives them the smell of the three missing men, but the wolves tell him only that they last smelled Rand and the others in the camp at night.
Then, reluctantly, knowing that he will have to tell Ingtar if he gains any information, Perrin asks the wolves about the smell of Fain and the Trollocs. For Perrin, the scent of Fain is so horrible he can barely stand it; for the wolves, the scent of Trollocs belongs to the Twisted Ones who are their greatest enemy, who they would go even through fire to kill, who they would bite and take down even though their flesh tasted terrible and their blood burned the tongue. And like Perrin, they recognize that the scent of Fain is far worse.
The soldiers and horses hear the wolves howling in the distance as they react to the scent, offering Perrin images that let him glean that the Darkfriends are still traveling south. The wolves urge Young Bull to join them in the hunt, to take down the Twisted Ones that have invaded the wolves’ land, and Perrin feels their fury and eagerness fill him, feels himself snarling and moving to join them, but he pulls back from the contact instead. Mat asks if he is sick, seeming both genuinely worried and also angry, and offers to make him some willow-bark tea, but Perrin assures him that he is fine, and goes to find Ingtar.
Taking Ingtar aside where no one else can hear, Perrin confesses that, while he has no idea where Rand and the others went, that he knows that Fain and the Trollocs are headed south. When Ingtar asks how Perrin knows, he tells the truth, answering simply “Wolves told me.” He expects either derision or fear, to possibly be accused of being a Darkfriend, and resolves that no matter what Ingtar does, Perrin will not be drawn to kill again. But Ingtar only nods thoughtfully and says that he has heard rumors of such things. He has even heard about a Warder who had such an ability, Elyas, and Perrin confirms that he has met Elyas. Ingtar is more concerned about finding the Horn than he is about what helps him do it, so when Perrin confirms that the wolves will track the Darkfriends for them, Ingtar agrees to the new plan. He doesn’t think that they should tell the others the truth, however; while wolves are considered good luck in the Borderlands because Trollocs fear them, some of the men might not understand Perrin’s abilites. This suits Perrin, who never wanted anyone to know, just fine, and they agree to tell everyone that Perrin has Hurin’s talent instead.
That information is generally accepted by Ingtar’s men, who have noticed Perrin’s sensitive nose already, but Mat is incredulous about the whole thing.
“A sniffer! You? You’re going to track murderers by smell? Perrin, you are as crazy as Rand. I am the only sane one left from Emond’s Field, with Egwene and Nynaeve trotting off to Tar Valon to become—” He cut himself short with an uneasy glance for the Shienarans.
Eventually Uno finds Trolloc tracks that confirm that Perrin is following the right trail, but Perrin has no time to worry about Mat’s disparaging remarks or anything else, because he has to hold the wolves back from attacking the Trollocs. He’s worried that the wolves, who don’t care about Darkfriends any more than other humans, will allow the them to escape with the Horn and dagger while they are busy taking down Fain and the Trollocs, and there will be no way to track them. He’s still having his argument with them when he receives some images that make him feel sick.
The wolves have found the slaughtered village, the mangled corpses strewn about, the earth bloodsoaked and torn up by human feet and Trolloc hooves, the vultures feasting on severed heads and piles of bodies. Perrin has to break contact before he throws up, and he cautiously informs Ingtar that there is something bad ahead of them, that he believes that the Trollocs killed the people from the village. Everyone buys this because sniffers can smell killing, but before they can investigate, Ingtar tells them that someone is following them.
Mat is hopeful that it’s Rand, but the lone rider following their trail at a mad gallop turns out to be Verin. She tells Ingtar that Moiraine sent her, and that she had a very hard ride trying to catch them. She has seen the village with the murdered Fade, and babbles on about it and the flies and how she wished she could have examined the body until she breaks off suddenly and asks where Rand is. When Ingtar explains about the three missing members of their party, Verin surprises him by knowing that Hurin is a sniffer. Ingtar explains that he has a new sniffer, Perrin, and invites Verin to ride with them, although he doesn’t seem like he really likes the idea.
Verin gives Perrin a suspicious look, remarking about how “providential” it is that Ingtar acquired a new sniffer right when he lost his old one, but ultimately she is more interested in Rand’s disappearance than anything else, and she decides to ride with Ingtar so that she can question him about it. Mat observes that Verin is after Rand, not the Horn, and Perrin agrees. He thinks privately that Rand might actually be better off wherever he is.
The basic idea of the many worlds interpretation have been used a lot in recent science fiction, especially in movies. It can be a convenient device for writers to explore “what if” scenarios, where characters are confronted with questions about themselves or their world view by being thrown up against something that is almost-but-not-quite their reality. Splinter realities are also common plot devices, in which time travelers change something and cause a new reality to branch off from the one the time traveler belongs to, like Captain Nero does in the 2009 Star Trek film, or as happens to Donna Noble in the 4th season Doctor Who episode, “Turn Left.” But the world Rand, Loial, and Hurin have found themselves feels less like a fully formed reality and more like a hazy mirror image of the one they come from. The fact that everything seems pale and hazy and unreal suggests this to me, as well as the quote Loial gives Rand:
If a woman go left, or right, does Time’s flow divide? Does the Wheel then weave two Patterns? A thousand, for each of her turnings? As many as the stars? Is one real, the others merely shadows and reflections?
Of course, there are no answers to the questions posed by this text, and what seems like a bizarre alteration of the laws of normal physics in one world may be totally normal in an other. But those burnt trees gave me (and Rand) pause, and I wonder if there won’t be some terrible secret about this world that is eventually revealed; like it’s a place where the Aes Sedai of old came to conduct dangerous experiments, or it’s a world that has given over to the Dark One, or a world that died out in nuclear annihilation.
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The Ruin of Kings
I wonder how the existence of the Creator and the Dark One factors into the world-building of The Wheel of Time. I can see how a Creator god could have an infinite number of universes over which they preside, but somehow it’s harder for me to imagine the Dark One being concerned with more than one world. His desire to overtake Rand’s universe and remake it in his image, to kill Time itself, seems so… petty? small?—if he is aware that there are many other universe that will continue on, unaffected by his actions in one. Maye there is a Dark One for every universe, making it possible that some universes triumph over the Dark while others fall to it? That would certainly put Rand’s journey into a very interesting perspective, but I don’t think there would be a Wheel for every universe. And if there is only one Wheel of Time for all the universes, if the Dark One succeeded in destroying it, that would affect the whole multiverse, as it were.
It also seems unlikely to me that the Darkfriends are actually in this world with Rand and Hurin and Loial. Until we learn more, I’m sticking to my theory that this world is an echo or reflection of the “real” one, and that what Hurin is smelling is also a reflection of the real thing, following the exact path that exists in the other world. I also have one important piece of information that Rand doesn’t have, which is that Egwene dreamed of the woman standing over him, the evil woman, who is probably the person actually responsible for their arrival in this place. In the passage describing the dream, Egwene’s sense of a trap waiting to close on Rand began after she saw them all disappear. So there’s definitely something bad waiting out there for them.
But it’s significant to see Rand accepting the title of “lord” from Hurin, even if it is under duress. Looks like Ingtar’s prediction about Rand rising to do his duty is already coming true, and I don’t think Rand has realized that the drive of the Pattern is going to be the thing that constrains him and directs his choices a lot more than any plans that Moiraine might have. It says something interesting about the idea of destiny though; Rand did have the opportunity to deny that role. He didn’t have to allow Hurin to keep the illusion that Rand is a lord, didn’t have to assume the mantle of leader. But he is a good man, and he recognized that it was the right thing to do for everyone’s sake, so he chose to do it. Replace the word “lord” with “hero” and you get a very profound thought from Rand as he muses over Hurin’s confidence in him.
That was what [heroes] were for. They protected the land and the people with their bodies and their lives, and when something was wrong, they set it aright and saw fairness and justice done. As long as Rand was doing something, anything, Hurin would have confidence that it would all come right in the end. That was what [heroes] did.
You could pull the same trick and replace “lords” with “Dragons.”
But Rand is not the only one facing the question of accepting a destiny that he doesn’t want for the sake of others. Perrin would keep denying the wolves for his own sake, but because of Mat’s predicament, he has to make a different choice. I was really proud of him in this chapter, and I liked the parallel between him and Rand. (Can y’all tell that parallel journeys are my jam?) I really hope that eventually he can overcome his fear and desire to be “normal” and find pleasure in being a wolfbrother. The struggle of the different morality when it comes to killing may never leave him, but there is much more to a wolf’s life than that, and I think Perrin would like to run free with a pack, to be seen as they see him rather than as the slow thinker that so many humans consider him to be. I really want Perrin to get a chance to be comfortable within himself.
Mat is starting to get on my nerves, though. I was pretty fond of him, foolishness and all, in The Eye of the World, but in the last few chapters of The Great Hunt, I admit I’ve started to get irritated. His fear is making him snippy and bitter, but he’s just being rude at this point, and I think his suffering is making him become more self-centered. Rand could be kidnapped or dead, but Mat seems half convinced that Rand ran off because he didn’t care about what happened to him, which is particularly silly since Mat knows that Rand only came along in the first place because he wanted to help find the dagger. For that matter, if Rand had just up and abandoned the hunt for Fain, it would be hard not to point fingers in Mat’s direction, since his response to learning about Ran’d abilities was basically “Thanks for wanting to help me I guess, but I’m going to stay as far away from you as I can, you walking deathtrap.” He’s super far away from you now, Mat. Maybe you should be more careful about what you wish for!
It’s also pretty unfair of Mat to suggest that Perrin and Rand are the “crazy” or abnormal ones while he is the only “sane” normal one; he’s attached to a possessed evil dagger! The fact that it’s an outside influence that he contracted accidentally instead of something innate in himself is a difference, but it’s not that big of a difference, and it’s also more Mat’s fault that he’s in trouble he’s in than it is Rand’s or Perrin’s fault for what they are. But maybe Mat knows this, and he’s saying all these things to convince himself otherwise, and to distract from his own fears. I hope we get a chapter or a section from Mat’s point of view soon; it’s always easier to empathize someone when we get to be in their head.
While we’re setting up some dreams, I’d love to be in Ingtar or Verin’s head, because there’s a lot going on with each of them that no one knows about. I have the weirdest feeling like Ingtar’s hiding something, although I don’t have much to back it up besides the fact that he seems like a much more flexible person than he was in the first book, and that I’m probably jumping to think everyone’s a Darkfriend just ’cause I know anyone can be. And as for Verin, the more she talks, the more it becomes clear that she is playing chatty fool to cover up her own keen intellect, and I am very certain that she has her own agenda, whether Moiraine sent her after Rand or not. And why would Moiraine suddenly think that Verin should go find Rand after she and the Amyrlin made such point of telling him he would not be hindered by them. The only reason I can think of is that Moiraine got wind of a plot against Rand, and Verin arrived too late to prevent it. Which may be the case. But I suppose we will see.
The upcoming chapters will finally begin to make good on the suspense that has been building since we left Fal Dara, and I can’t wait to cover them with you. Next week’s power will be Chapters 15 and 16; in the meantime, I await some people who know a lot more about physics than me to add their theories about alternate universes in The Wheel of Time. Just remember watch those spoilers please! Y’all are the best.
Sylas K Barrett imagines that the alternate universe Rand finds himself in looks a lot like that movie camera trick where you move the camera in the opposite direction while you zoom in or out. Hollywood vertigo, baby!
OP:
Or, just replace “lord” with “leader.” That’s really what Rand is getting at, and what he’s becoming. A leader. The Lord part deals with divine right. Which, in Rand’s case, is certainly true, if it’s true for anybody. But to our modern minds, I think leader fits what Rand is talking about well.
As far as the rest, your insights into the cosmology of the Wheel are well thought out. I hope its not too much of a spoiler to say that we can’t comment on most of it, because it actually comes into play in the story.
My initial reaction to the haziness of this particular Word of If was to view it through the lens of Science fiction. That this World was not the same frequency as theirs, that they were misaligned somehow, and that was why it seemed hazy and insubstantial to them. I thought that occupants of this world might find Randland Prime hazy as well.
Its almost cheating, reading this after having consumed so much media dealing with multiverse theory. When I read this section for the first time, I hadn’t been exposed to it that much yet.
Sylas – I’m enjoying your experience of this story immensely. It brings back my memories of when I read this many years ago. Your instincts are good – hang on to them.
Thanks Sylas for the post.
About Mat it will be worth the wait, when we get in his head.
And be careful what you wish for: Would knowing the deal of Ingtar or Verin be great or is the mystery and paranoia not somethink that adds to the reading experience?
About DF, there is a moment when some people are to paranoid, but as long as you don’t suspect Rand, Nynaeve, Perrin… (people we have been in the head for some time, and which should be clear)
One of the fandomsuspects at that point was Moiraine btw…
Oh boy, you’ve touched on a topic I’m actually really rather passionate about. You see, I am, as it so happens, a “Maths and Science” person, though by no means a Physics expert [I’m more of a Computer Science guy, with a serious interest (and I dare say somewhat of a knack) for Mathematics], but nevertheless, Quantum Mechanics fascinates me and I’ve been looking into it and gathering expertise for a number of years now. So I hope you won’t mind me rambling a bit about this Schrödinger’s Cat business.
But as far as I can tell, what Schrödinger was trying to say with his cat thought experiment seems to mostly depend on what Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics you find most appealing. I’m guessing that you are much more comfortable with Many Worlds (aka: just Superposition and nothing else) than you are with the Copenhagen Interpretation (aka Superposition + Collapse).
Many Worlds does remove the Measurement Problem, isn’t Human-centric in the way Copenhagen is, and most importantly actually attempts to give us an idea of what is actually going on with Quantum objects where Copenhagen people just say “Shut up and calculate”, which basically boils down to “answering” the question by refusing to acknowledge the question. This is something I hate when Scientists do it — in my view, what separates Science from everything else in life is that Science categorically refuses to have questions it won’t attempt to answer, or ever give up on answering — so for that reason, for me personally I do respect Many Worlds a great deal where I have a significantly less amount of respect for Copenhagen.
But, ultimately, I do kind of dislike Superposition altogether. That’s why I prefer the de Broglie – Bohm Pilot Wave Theory, also colloquially known as Bohmian Mechanics. There is this amazing video by the channel Veritasium that gives a really clear picture of what that Interpretation says while keeping it formulated in words most lay people should be able to grasp relatively easily. Here’s a link. if you’re interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIyTZDHuarQ
What I’m trying to get at here, is that from what I personally gathered in my research on the Schrödinger’s Cat Thought Experiment was that he was trying to prove to all the Copenhagen people — Nils Bohr and Werner Heisenberg most notable among them — how silly the idea of (Quantum) Superposition really was, by showing that it would mean that an unobserved cat could be both alive, but also dead, at the same time. Which is obviously a silly notion. Granted, with multiple Universes, it’s less silly, but I’ve read and heard from a number of Science Historians that Schrödinger was very much in the Eintein “God does not play dice” camp, i.e. he opposed the idea of Superposition, and that the cat thought experiment was designed to discredit the notion.
But, like I said, I myself find Superposition hard to swallow, so it makes sense for me to want to see, and thus see, a legendary Quantum Scientist like Schrödinger supporting my take on the matter. And, to come to the ultimate point: from what I’ve gathered, literally everybody who has dabbled in (let alone seriously studied or, heck, made a career out of) Quantum Mechanics thinks the Schrödinger’s Cat Thought Experiment not only fully supports their proclivities in and/or Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, but also that Schrödinger fully intended his thought experiment to show exactly what the person in question wants it to show.
The moral of the story: don’t necessarily take my reading of Schrödinger’s Cat as gospel, as I’m surely biased, but be careful not to regard your own take as final either, because you’re biased too. And I know you are, because literally everyone, including seasoned Quantum Scientists, are biased when it comes to Schrödinger’s Cat. I suppose it’s just really easy to read into it whatever you want.
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I’m sure I’ll come back with another post on the actual content of the Wheel of Time analysis, but I couldn’t pass up this opportunity to side-track into one of my favourite subjects. I hope you, and the other readers of this comment feed, don’t mind. But hey. at the very least you know for sure that there are absolutely 0 Spoilers in this one, right? :P
In Tom Holt’s ‘Who’s Afraid of Beowulf’ a ressurected Viking explains to the modern woman who has been swept up into this adventure that she worries too much and should just trust the Viking King. “That’s what Kings are for, so people like you and me don’t have to worry.”
In Randland a Lord is somebody who knows more than you and has more power than you and can and will make things right for you. The commons of Randland aren’t idiots, they know not all lords keep up their side of the social contract but enough do that they continue to have faih in the class in general.
As far as Mat is concerned, you have to wait until book 3 when the “real” Mat shows up (the Mat that has the most fans in the community).
That should be Perrin.
It’s so nice that Sylas picks up on potentially significant oddities. That way we can cackle about them without drawing extra attention to them.
@8 – Fixed, thanks!
@6 princessroxana
We see a great many examples of nobles being terrible, and very few of them acting like public servants. (Spoilers follow)
The High Lords and Ladies of Tear are backstabbing weasels, the nobility of Cairhein views treachery as a national virtue, Tarabon’s ruling class wrecks the country through civil war, and even Andor’s nobility engages in an extended fight over succession while the apocalypse is happening.
Outside of the Borderlands, why is there any reason for peasants to assume that “their” lord or lady isn’t one of the clear majority of terrible nobles who care more about their own power and privileges than their responsibilities?
The other problem with a Big Man system is that it creates a sense of dependency on the Big Man. If the Three Rivers comes to rely on Perrin to make all of their decisions for them, what are they going to do if he dies?
Keep in mind, we aren’t seeing Mat here. He has a serious mental illness (source notwithstanding) and I think that Jordan (a Vietnam Vet himself) is portraying PTSD as it is now known, as a horrible life consuming disease with magical properties that alienates you from your loved ones if it doesn’t infect them as well. Look at his symptoms… The fun, mischievous young man goes through a sudden trauma and is now surly, angry, rude, and it’s just getting worse the longer it goes untreated……
@11 / dptullos
I’d say that first paragraph is full of Spoilers. You might want to consider whiting it out (there is a text colour button on the top of the screen in case you didn’t know about it yet), lest the Moderators do it for you.
The mystery of how Rand, Hurrin and Loial were moved to the parallel world has always bothered me. The glow in the void is an indication that Rand did it accidentally. //But then how could Lanfear follow him? It seems pretty far fetched that she would be able to reverse engineer which world he went to out of the infinite options. If she sent him there, why bring the other two as well?// Do we ever get a satisfactory explanation for this?
As for Mat, you aren’t wrong, Sylas, that he is being a self centered jerk right now. Just stick with him a little longer and you will see why so many of us love him so much.
@11, I wasn’t recomrnending the system just describing the mindset.
As for the Worlds of If, my take has always been that Rand and company are from the “real” world. The portal stones give access to potential worlds based on different decisions and outcomes. The less likely ones are faded and less substantial. The more likely ones are difficult to distinguish from the “real” world. And avoiding spoilers, my take is that the in world characters don’t have any better idea on what it means for the larger conflict of good vs evil. The may give their opinions, but those are just guesses. //Especially Ishamael. His theories are just what backs up what he wants to be true. What he presents as fact are things he wants to be true, but has no proof for.// There are no omnicient narrators in The Wheel of Time.
@14 – //It had to be Lanfear. There’s no way Rand could channel in his sleep. As far as why bring the other two, I think it was proximity to the stone.//
@14:
I think you answer your own question quite well. Nothing about Rand assuming the Void before falling asleep indicates that he must have channelled them to the Portal Stone world, and everything in your whited out text indicates that Lanfear did. Rand assuming the Void is incendental in text, and a red herring out of text.
The last paragraph @11 also contains spoilers (and it’s 2 rivers, not 3). (Not really a spoiler, but in the part with spoilers).
Borderland lords might be better leaders than those in the south because they only survive if they are competent, while others have nothing to do except plotting.
@17 – //You can channel Spirit while asleep. That is how you ward your dreams. Is Spirit how you use the Portal Stones? I think it is, but I’m not positive. The WoT Companion does not say in the Portal Stone entry.//
@18 I agree it is the most likely theory. But I can’t wrap my head around why Hurrin and Loial were included. What was the goal of getting them away from Ingtar’s group in this way? Maybe I just don’t like this part of the plot
@20 – Ok, let me specify. //You can’t actively channel in your sleep. Yes, you can use Spirit and maintain it, but that’s before you fall asleep. Also, remember how much it took for Rand to use the portal stones again? There’s no way he did it in his sleep.//
Regarding the fuzziness of the world their in, ‘ // I took that to be a byproduct of the condensed space of the world they are in versus what they are used to //
@16 Regarding // Ishmael, I actually think he has an excellent understanding of the repetitive cycle he is stuck in, and given his fate each time, his motivations (as explained in his somewhat more coherent Moridin days) are the only one of the Forsaken’s that make some sense to me. //
@23 //Ishamael seems to want to equate himself with the Dragon. I think that is hubris. I don’t think that Ishamael’s soul or Lanfear’s or Fain’s or Perrin’s for that matter are always being spun out to replay the same scenario over and over again. I think that the Dark One’s prison is breached, and the Dragon is reborn to seal it up imperfectly and then dies. Then later, just as the Dark One as about the break free completely, the Dragon is reborn and seals it up perfectly. The Dragon is the only soul that has to be reborn each time. In fact, with what we know about the Dark One and souls, it’s possible that once you give your soul to him, he owns it and you aren’t spun out anymore. The pattern is the same, but the details are different each time the Wheel spins. I think Ishamael wants to believe he is super important and takes what he knows of the Dragon and extrapolates that he is just as important. I think it is BS. He isn’t important and what he tells Rand about defeating the Dragon or turining him is either made up or what the Dark One wants him to believe. How could he possibly know what happened in previous turnings of the Wheel? As far as we know, only the Dark One AKA Father of Lies and those bound to the Horn have any memory of previous turnings of the Wheel.//
@15 princessroxana
That’s fair.
I’m somewhat uncertain about how Jordan himself felt about the system. The narrative clearly supports Lord Perrin, but most of the Westlands nobility we meet are evil, hilariously incompetent, or both.
@19 birgit
Borderlands lords are the leaders of a military caste in a society that lives under constant threat from the Shadow. That kind of society can go horribly wrong (look at Shadar Logoth), but it’s not as likely to produce selfish, greedy nobles who can’t unite against a greater threat.
@23 John
Plenty of the Forsaken just want power or revenge, which are very basic human motivations.
Sylas, you’ll find that a future book has one character explaining the multi-world paradox to another, with respect to the Dark One. I won’t delve into the explanation, other than to say that the character having it explained is…dissatisfied with the explanation. As was the reader, in my case. :)
If you think Mat is bad here, just wait until later when // Rand starts going all megalomania bonkers from the taint.
@24 // There are numerous in world ways where he could have gotten a mind expanding explanation of it (portal stones, snakes and foxes, the various terangreal) We see from the heroes of the horn that more than just the Dragon is tied to the Wheel and that those tied to it always have similar stories. Given the cyclical nature of the wheel I assume the Dragon’s story is similar in each full circle and as a result it is hard to imagine the most important characters aren’t similarly spun out. It’s all speculation obviously. //
@25 // I get the motivations as a drive to accomplish something but it just doesn’t make sense to me that being aligned with the Dark One is a net win for them. At least Moridin’s end game of ending time aligns with the Dark One’s expected endgame. //
Lords, heroes, and leaders oh my! (Sorry!) Well, the only Lords Rand has spent any time with are Borderlanders…. at this point of the series anyway, so that is what he believes…that they serve the common good.
Someone hinted and didn’t say about the worlds of “IF”… // There are many worlds but only one Creator, one Dark One and one World of Dreams. If the Dark One is sealed in one world… “He’s” sealed on all… but the opposite should be also true… I tried not to think about it… because that means every Dragon will succeed or fail? Unless I forgot something…//
@28 John
If we look at their different motivations, we can see how the Forsaken are able to justify allying with the embodiment of absolute evil.
(Spoilers follow)
Some of the Forsaken are fallen heroes driven by old grudges and wounded pride; they’re willing to let the world burn as long as they get revenge. Others are monstrous hedonists who don’t care about anything but satisfying their desires. And it’s worth remembering that some Forsaken were relatively minor Aes Sedai; as long as they get to be in charge, those Forsaken are willing to sell their souls and damn the world.
@11, @25
Mods or dptullos: //Please white out the last sentence of @11, as well as “Lord Perrin” @25. Both are spoilers. Perrin does not become a lord until book 4.//
Allow me to split the difference here in that I agree with John in that “Moridin” seemed like the only smart darkfriend, and the rest always seemed like a bunch of idiots to me, but I can also see dputllos point in that the world is full of idiots so I am not surprised that so many of them are darkfreinds
No spoilers, but we do get worthwhile insights into Mat, Ingtar, and Verin eventually. With Mat in particular, the popular advice is to look at what he says, sure, but also look at what he does, because those two often contradict each other and inform his character in a way unique to him.
Time and time again, Sylas is so spot on (or at least a justifiable error) with musings, predictions, suspicions, that I cannot help but be impressed by the critical thinking displayed, and be somewhat ashamed for not having had similar revelations on my own first read through.
@34, Ditto, Ditto. As we say Sylas sees the Pattern, Sylas certainly sees all kinds of things I missed on my reading!
I wanted to be in Verin’s mind, too, at this point. ///I wanted to know if she had actually “never had a chance to study a–” if “Myrddraal” is the end of that sentence. She’s Black Ajah, probably very old given her graying hair, and interested in Shasdowspawn. I’m sure she could study Myrddraal if she wanted to. But she could also lie.///
I could understand wolves saying Trollocs have “inedible flesh and bitter blood” if they’re so physically tainted with Evilness. But wolves also say humans taste bad. Interesting. Scavenging birds won’t touch or eat a Myrddraal, but flies will eat it, or at least touch it. Interesting. ///Wolves seem to be the only creatures known to consider Trollocs utterly inedible. Trollocs eat each other, scavenger birds eat them, and Machin Shin consumes them. Fain in Shaisam mode notes that Worms prefer humans to Trollocs, and that he had eaten both and found Trolloc flesh “had little to recommend it.” Now I imagine Fain at a restaurant in the Town, telling someone “I don’t recommend the Trolloc stew.” Hahaha. ///
Haha, Verin shooed “the Dark One’s own weight” in flies off the Myrddraal. I guess that’s an idiom. ///Did she ever ask the Dark One how much he wieghed? Probably not. :-p ///
Great job as always Sylas. Always picking up on a great many things.which I missed on first read through. Whoever activated the Portal Stone, proximity transported those within it’s range.
Don’t think of all the different worlds of “if” existing separately, instead think of them as all existing in the same place at the same time. The Creator and Shaitan are both in all of them at the same time. You have to realize that both are beyond space and time and exist in all places at all times.
Ironic Line of the Day: ///“Darkfriends got here, and they certainly couldn’t use the Power.”– Rand ///
Also: ///“I wonder if there won’t be some terrible secret about this world that is eventually revealed; like it’s a place where the Aes Sedai of old came to conduct dangerous experiments, or it’s a world that has given over to the Dark One, or a world that died out in nuclear annihilation.” — Sylas. Haha, those aren’t mutually exclusive. The “real” world Broke because Aes Sedai conducted dangerous experiments, and the impacts were akin to nuclear devastation, though not annihilation.////
I think it may be a given that this world was used by Aes Sedai for experiments
// Especially biological/genetic ones. The existence of grolm, raken and others confirms it. Looks like a Jurassic style experiment by Aes Sedai before the Breaking, possibly even before the War of the Shadow, since unlike trollocs and crestures in Blight those beasts can be tamed by non-Darkfriends and are not naturally evil. However, it looks like during the Breaking or even before, mass effort by Aes Sedai was made to bring breeding population to Seanchan, probably to gain an advantage during infighting there.
I always wondered, was that Seandar contenent wasnt that badly effected during the Breaking, perhaps other than becoming isolated that resulted in in-fighting between Aes Sedai there, the one that helped Luthair Paendrag to conquer them? Is the sheer devastation and suffering on main continent forced Aes Sedai to work together and organize and create their own governmental structure of White Tower? //
jcmnyu@21:
I think the most likely answer is that the Portal Stone transports anyone within a certain radius of the stone, maybe dependent on how much Power is used. There was no way for Lanfear to even know that Rand would be sleeping by the Stone (there’s no evidence she messed with his mind, and Rand has shown himself resistant to that kind of tampering anyway), so this wasn’t a planned trap. It was more a window of opportunity that she exploited.
Now, she could have just killed Hurin and Loial, dragged their bodies away, and transported Rand, sure, but she hasn’t shown herself at this point (or even later in the series) to be that particular kind of evil.
jcmnyu@16,24, John@23,28:
I’ll add to the speculation. Prior to his death and rebirth as Moridin, Ishamael seemed to view himself sometimes as himself, and sometimes as the Great Lord of the Dark. This wasn’t just about Rand and Co. confusing Ba’alzamon with the trolloc name for the Dark One. Even the other Forsaken comment on it. And we see it in his direct speech. He goes in and out of the first person with regards to things that could only be ascribed to the Dark One Himself. The Forsaken view it as hubris, but what if continued overuse of the True Power began to subsume Ishamael, and more and more of the Dark One’s own mind took over, both driving him completely insane (because his fragile finite human mind could never contain or comprehend what was being shoved into it), and giving him memories that aren’t truly his, of past encounters with the Dragon.
I think our first appearance of Shaidar Haran is post-tDR, so after Ishamael’s death. The DO may have found it necessary to create this Avatar because it would be a long time before Moridin would channel enough of the TP to allow the DO direct access and control, again.
Again, all speculation, but a case could be built for such a transference. Lord knows we have enough examples of memories bleeding across time and space in this series, as well as whole consciousnesses being swapped, and two consciousnesses inhabiting one mind. Heck, three consciousnesses inhabiting two minds.//
John@25:
You assume that Darkfriends, and even the Forsaken, actually know what the Dark One’s endgame is. We don’t get any evidence whatsoever that the other Forsaken understand that the Dark One plans to end time itself and make all life cease to exist. They’re understanding (out of their own mouths) of ending time is that life would become eternal for those who serve the Dark One. They believe a lie, much like what Kaecilius believes of Dormammu in Dr. Strange.
@40:
// I don’t think the grolm in the Portal Stone world they visit are real. I think they are illusions created by Lanfear to force Rand into what she wants him to do. If not, they are awfully conveniently timed to meet her exact need to bend Rand’s decisions to her desires.
Not to mention that the Trolloc script on the monument they discover specifically mentions defeating Hawkwing, which would be 2000 years after the Breaking.
The only thing the grolm in the Portal Stone world confirms to me is that Lanfear has some knowledge and connection with the Seanchan at this point in the series. Something that might have later been abandoned by Robert Jordan.
There are the lines in the sky too, which are still mysterious to me, because they don’t seem to be raken or to’raken. They almost seem like the smoke left behind by jet propulsion. //
@42:
Ha! Well, I wasn’t expecting to see THAT. I just wanted the double post deleted.
It’s automatic–if we unpublish a comment, even if it’s just for a double post, the message above is generated. Could go back and delete it, but that would make the thread even more confusing, at this point, so…moving on :)
@AP 41
A wall of text discussing larger Wheel of Time concepts and world building…
//You may be right about the bleeding over of the Dark One. Personally, I think Ishamael was a brilliant philosopher and after he decided that the endless turning of the Wheel was a sort of existential torture, he saw the Dark One as a path to end his soul’s suffering. However, access to the True Power started to break down his mind and instead of bleeding the Dark One’s thoughts into his, he started to lose his grip on reality. He started to imagine how his philosophy of cyclical life and repeating patterns would fit his view of the world and, as we all do, put himself in the center of the narrative. If the Dragon is spun out over and over at the most important time, he must have been as well. In fact, they must be the two most important souls in the universe! I’m not up on my DSM categorizations, but megalomania seems like a good fit for his actions.
I think Jordan’s intention was that the pattern of the Age is the same, the specifics are not. I took that to mean the souls are not the same each time an Age comes around again. People don’t just repeat the same lives over and over. The Wheel spins out souls in a unique way, but keeps the pattern similar. The souls attached to the Horn are used as correctives and ta’veren are the ultimate correctives to keep the pattern on track. When things move away from the plan, Birgitte and Gaidal or Rogosh Eagle Eye are woven in. I’m not sure if a soul is always a ta’veren every time it is spun out or just when needed. Is Mat a ta’veren in every life? Is channeling attached to the soul or genetic? Jordan seems to go back and forth. Sometimes he points to genetics with comments by characters about breeding being tied to channeling, but the Lanfear, Balthamel and Aginor souls being stuffed into new bodies seem to point to the soul. Especially when a male soul put into a female body channels the male half of the Source. So, the soul looks like it is super important for channeling and I would guess ta’veren, but it isn’t definite. But I believe there are so many souls available that the roles that Egwene and Perrin and Lanfear and Elaida play this time around will be played by others in the future. There are billions of souls and the options available to the Wheel are infinite. The only constant is the Dragon. That is what makes him so special. This one particular soul is only born at specific times, predicted by prophesies, to signify extraordinary events. Every other soul is randomly spun out and that makes the story different each time the Wheel turns.//
@45 // I don’t think souls are necessarily ta’veren in every life as it is said in the books that people aren’t necessarily ta’veren their whole lives even. //
@44:
So noted.
@45, 46:
// I agree with John regarding Ta’veren. I’m not sure I agree regarding the person who is the Dragon/Savior is not always the same soul that inhabited Lews Therin Telemon and Rand al’Thor. I wouldn’t think we could completely rule out what you are saying, however, because there just isn’t enough evidence to know one way or another. As you say, most of what we know comes from characters who either can’t possibly know for sure themselves, or are known liars.
Jordan has given conflicting statements outside of the text regarding whether channeling is a matter of the soul or DNA. However, he did confirm that the Red Ajah culling theory was correct on his official blog a few years before his death: https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=211 (Number 8). I don’t think we ever got a better explanation, nor a straight answer as to why Halima channels saidin if genetics are involved. My personal retcon would be that genetics provides access to the One Power, period, and channeling Saidin or Saidar has to do with your gender (psychological makeup). But while that sort of thought process might make sense in today’s understanding of gender, it makes no sense at all to what most people thought in the 80s and 90s when this story was being written, and there’s no other evidence of someone with gender dysphoria channeling the other half of the OP, although that would be absolutely fascinating, if it were true. //
Whoot!
That dang dagger. Causes so much grief. Beware of something baring gifts. Can’t quite remember that quote.
I
Perrin and his discovery of wolfbrothers. Farley Mowet would be proud. It is one of the best parts of the story for me. Basically the litmus saying that what Rand is doing is right.
Dear Verin, she is such a well written character. This is where it all starts.
If it wasn’t for the language barrier, specifically how long winded Ogier can be, they would be a tremendous source of knowledge for even the Aes a Sedai. Rand without Loial would really be in trouble.
Woof.™
ETA- what’s up with all the dead space in comments?
One thing people always get wrong about the Schrödinger’s cat thought experiment is that they leave out the bit with the radioactive isotope and the Geiger counter. If you have a box with a cat and a poison vial, the cat is either dead or alive. There is no superposition. But if you add the radioactive isotope and the Geiger counter, then we get superposition because we’ve tied the ‘aliveness’ or ‘deadness’ of the cat to a quantum event—the decay of the radioactive isotope. If the Geiger counter detects radiation, then the poison vial is smashed and the cat dies; if the Geiger counter does not detect radiation, then the poison vial remains intact and the cat lives. Superposition is not caused by choices, it’s caused by unpredictable quantum events that have more than one possible outcome. (All I’m saying is that the many worlds of the Wheel of Time are ‘calculations’ of what would happen if different people made different choices from those made in the Wheel’s preferred Pattern; they are not due to quantum superposition.)
@48; The spaces are whited-out spoilers. Highlight or roll over them to read them.
@45/47
I think that the fact that Rand could hear Lew Therin’s thoughts would argue that the dragon is not always the same soul. It really sounded like two distinct entities. But maybe they are connected in some ways?
‘I read in a book -‘ is dear Loial’s catch phrase. He is an invaluable source of information and I for one would happily listen to him forever. I must admit however that the characters in WoT usually have legitimate reasons for demanding Loial be brief.
Dear Verin is also a source for invaluable information but only the Creator and second time readers know what she’s up to. It’s a pity nobody can trust Aes Sedai. Even when they are genuinely on your side they still have hidden motives and too many secrets.
@48 subwoofer
“I do not trust these Greeks bearing gifts” – Laocoön, observing the Trojan Horse, and trying to get his fellow countrymen to just burn the thing down rather than take it into Troy. This does not end well for him or his children.
@51:
I suggest re-reading Chapter 50, “Veins of Gold”, in The Gathering Storm.
@47 // I think we have enough to confirm that the dragon is always the same soul. In world, via the reincarnation of the forsaken, we have evidence to support the notion that channeling gender is tied to the soul. Outside the books, I believe Robert Jordan confirmed that the Dragon always was a man. The only reason this would seem to be required is if it was the same soul IMO //
@53- ah. I was thinking more like Harry Dresden had a quote about it.
I see the text, I was just wondering why? The opening post said spoilers are more than welcome. Unless someone complained about it… Kinda like complaining about LotR spoilers at this point. Anyways, sure. Whatever floats people’s boats.
Loial is such a grounding character. With all the drama and later turmoil, he calms the pages.
Woof.™
@56:
The PTBs decided that spoilers are welcome, but should be whited out, since Silas has not read the series before.
I love the WOT series, and have read up through book 4, but that was a while ago and I didn’t remember much. I was planning on rereading the series, but didn’t have anywhere close to the time each of these 1000 page books needs. Then I found this series! It has been a treat to read along with Sylas, as it feels like I’m reading them for the first time in a lot of places. He is so intuitive on many things, I hope he keeps this series going through all the books. Though when he finally gets through book 4, I’m going to be reading along with him. Thanks for making this series!!
@@@@@ 53 zdrakec
“timeo Danaos et dona ferentes” more literally translates as “I fear the Greeks, especially bearing gifts” but generally gets paraphrased to “Beware Greeks bearing gifts”. “timere” is to be afraid of, not to distrust.
I can tell you this. Mat will stay on your nerves for a bit more to come but long before the end you’ll be hoping a chapter with his POV is coming soon. The irritation is worth the pay off as I’m sure others may agree.
Perrin and wolves: can’t say much, but there is that one certain battle that is a highlight of the series. Not saying any more.
On the nature of the multiverse, this little side jaunt will have an effect.
@49 as a chemist I can say that what I think you are missing is that since everything in quantum mechanics is determined by quantum events superposition exists for everything – for many it is just to small that we don’t see it. For example the math predicts that you and I have wavelengths so while I am here – I am also over there. My wavelength is just so small that I don’t see it in my everyday life, but if I somehow got up to the speed of light…..
Note that I am not a quantum physicist and as our earlier commenter noted all we REALLY know about quantum mechanics is that the math works and when we do things with light and time the math seems to play out. What Quantum Mechanics means outside of the math….no one knows. I suppose though I should say that my understand is also that Schrodinger proposed this thought experiment to show the ridiculousness of QM…so take that into consideration I suppose.
Onward to the reread – man this is fun and boy do you analyze what you read well. Could we get you to do a read of the new sun series…I would love to have you explain it to me. I felt good just being able to recognize the moon landing photo and that Natrium was sodium….I am quite sure I missed so so much else in that book because boy did much of it make no sense to me (but was all of it still so amazingly enjoyable).
It looks like this post hasn’t been added to the series feed yet.
Ignore 62. I meant to post this on the part 9 thread.
@62/63 – Fixed, thanks!
Thank you for not having drank the Mat kool-aid. Be prepared to hate him until around book 10. Prior to that, he’s insufferable.
My favorite part about comment 5 is that it reveals, somewhat ironically, that the Schroedinger’s Cat experiment itself means two things at once ;)
Within the Wheel of Time context I’m finding I don’t remember enough about the If-worlds to remember how exactly they fit into the cosmology of the pattern (although I know we do get some more development of that). I’ve never been a huge fan of the ‘many worlds’ theory in storytelling though – for me it starts to make choice/personality kind of meaningless and leads me down all sorts of existential quandaries ;)
Great insights as usual – I agree Mat does have a payoff although for me it took me a LONG time to get over the bitter taste he left in my mouth.
I love that part where Perrin sees himself as the wolves see him for the first time.
Regarding the power/genetics/gennder/soul: //It seems to me that while genetics may control access to the power, your gender controls the type – but gender is itself a matter of the soul and inherent to a person. Halima excepted, who is obviously a special case, we don’t see any incidences of gender dysphoria. Nor do we see any ideas of cultures that believe gender is a fluid thing – although gender ROLES/average traits do differ across the different cultures we see.//
Regarding how the soul and the Wheel work: //I am pretty sure Rand and Lews Therin are one and the same soul – I thought the point was that for whatever reason the memories bled through, but that was not normal. I don’t recall if the taint was the sole explanation for that, or if it was unique to this cycle of the turning. One of the things I do sometimes get fuzzy on – especially as it’s been so long since I’ve read the series – is remembering how souls work across different Ages vs completely different turnings. For example, is Rand/Lews the same soul that’s used in EVERY incarnation of the Dragon? I believe the Heroes of the Horn we know for sure are the same across each turn, not just within a given turn. I actually never really thought about the Forsaken, etc – if other souls are spun out with each turn, or if it’s different souls but with roughly the same ‘roles’. Likewise, are the memories Mat gets solely from different Ages within this turning, or does he get access to memories from all the turns? And I know there were early plans to incoroporate more of the Manethern/Old Blood storyline, although that got abandoned – but it seems to me like that is intended to be more like cultural/genetic memory, not necessarily reincarnated souls. My understanding is that reincarnation is actually pretty rare (at least within a given turning of the Wheel).// I need to go look all this stuff up again :)
I have a feeling not too many folks are still reading these, but I am enjoying them very much as I make my way through TWoT for the first time. I do realize that this thread is nearly a full four-years old…
I just wanted to post that the “if” world Rand and co. visit in these chapters gave me incredibly strong Zelda: A Link to the Past vibes – there is even mention of a mirror in the coming chapters, IIRC.
Anyway, I am nearly 1/2 through The Great Hunt, and I am working hard to catch up to the current schedule. Obviously, I have a LONG way to go, but I think I can get there by the time things move on to Crown of Swords… maybe.